EdTech Startup Showcase

Ross Romano: [00:00:00] Welcome in, everyone. You are listening to the EdTech Startup Showcase here on the Be Podcast Network. Thanks for joining us for this episode. It's going to be another great conversation here, and today we're talking about the skill based economy, modern career and technical education, college and career pathways, all of these really critical topics for Educating and preparing our students to have successful lives, right?

And it's what can we be doing during their schooling years to plan ahead for what some of the skills and competencies are that they're going to need or that will be valuable to them and how do we put those programs in place? How do we have effective partnerships with companies in the EdTech space, with state level leadership and others who can help share their expertise and their guidance to really help schools succeed.[00:01:00]

So we are joined today by Matt Chaussee, co founder and CEO of the award winning immersive media and virtual reality production studio, Be More Colorful, which you may know from their CareerView XR product that is revolutionizing career exploration for students. And we also have our guest, Richard Kincaid, who is currently the Senior Executive Director.

For the Office of College and Career Pathways at the Maryland State Department of Education in 2003, 2023 rather, Richard was the finalist for ACTI's National Career and Technical Education Administrator of the Year. He also serves on the National Board of Directors for SkillsUSA and he's actively involved as an appointed commissioner on the Apprenticeship 2030 Commission and on the Maryland Technology Development Corporation's Equitech Growth Fund.

In January 2023, Richard actually testified for the U. S. House of Representatives Committee on Education and the Workforce to advocate on behalf of state CTE directors from across [00:02:00] the country. And prior to joining the Maryland State Department of Education, he was a state director. Career and Technical Education at the District of Columbia as often the State Superintendent of Education.

He's also served in a variety of district roles as Director of K 12 Curriculum and Instruction, CTE Director, Campus Administrator, and High School Debate Teacher. So he's had a long and varied career in public education. And and we're going to get to hear a lot about that today. And this should be a great conversation with Matt and Richard.

Welcome guys to the show.

Matt Chausee: Thanks, Ross. Great.

Richard Kincaid: Thanks, Ross. Happy to be here.

Ross Romano: So Richard, I referenced that congressional testimony in my intro there. And I actually wanted to start there. And this may not be the exact quote. It's pretty close, but I didn't go back and verify the exact wording. But in essence, what you said was that career is the goal. College was one of several ways to get there, right?

We're talking about what, You know, college and career pathways look like in [00:03:00] today's schools and what we're trying to make them look like I'd love to hear a little more about how you are going about the process of defining college and career pathways, what that really means. Because I think that's an area where there's not, I would guess that if I talk to your peers from across the 50 states that I might hear a lot of different definitions or I talk to people in, in high school systems, right, about the, the terminologies that there's a lot of things that these words tend to mean to people but I know you have clearly a specific approach that you're going about developing and implementing, so we'd love to hear, Yeah,

Richard Kincaid: Yeah, of course. So thank you for the invitation, Ross, to talk about these things and in particular the really transformative work that is happening across the state of Maryland. And to really get to the heart of your question, I have to sort of zoom out [00:04:00] just a little bit and acknowledge how we've gotten to where we are right now.

And some of The tailwinds that are providing us opportunities to meet the challenge of this incredibly diverse workforce that we find ourselves in post pandemic. And so, to zoom out and begin that conversation, I would be remiss if I didn't talk about the Blueprint for Maryland's Future, 2018, and is a transformative plan to improve, statewide education by expanding things like early childhood education, elevating teaching standards, enhancing college and career readiness, and then providing equitable opportunities for all students across the state.

And it really is about ensuring that every child in Maryland has the tools and the support that they need to really just participate and succeed in [00:05:00] this modern world that we find ourselves in. And so when we drill down just a little bit from that sort of really, you know, you know, broad statement of, of how we're wanting to transform education, we're doing this through a couple of different ways.

And so first, Maryland has redesigned what we mean when we say college and career readiness. Through a longitudinal study that we worked with the American Institutes of Research on, we really wanted to find ways where we could assess students career and college readiness beyond just a typical state test.

We know as educators and have known for quite some time that students are able to show proficiency in any number of ways and a test only reveals One of those ways. So we wanted to open up a chance for us to really identify how students are [00:06:00] succeeding across the system. And so in our new standard, it ensures that by the end of 10th grade that every student will have the skills and knowledge needed.

To succeed in college, career, or any post secondary path that they choose. So looking at things like GPA grades in certain courses, of course, still having a standardized testing option, leaning into math and literacy skills and how we're supporting and assessing along the way, these are all.

differentiated pathways that students can use to show their proficiency moving into college and career. As we move through that system then, we start talking about things like post college and career pathways. And this is where we find dual enrollment, CTE, You know, advanced academics like IB and AP courses.

This is where students are able to then begin thinking about what's next. [00:07:00] And I think this is really where the transformative piece happens. You'll remember, You know, in the late 2000s across the country, we had this idea that every student needed to go to college, like that was the key to success, right?

And there are large bodies of research that show equity and access and opportunity issues related to that. But I think as our economy has grown and become a bit more modern, A number of our companies across the United States are now recognizing that there are multiple ways to get to a good job for students.

And so in Maryland, and as highlighted through, you know, the testimony that I provided earlier this year to the House Committee on Education and Workforce, we're redefining at a grassroots level what the destination is for kids. The destination is a job. It's [00:08:00] a career. Like, that's what we're all headed into.

We want good neighbors. We want a community that's self sufficient and can support itself. And there are a number of ways that we as humans, as students, can get to that place no longer is the destination college. College, apprenticeship, internship advanced academic pathways, dual and like all of these things become pathways that are specific to a student's needs, their desires the field that they want to go into.

These are now the pathways that students can move into and out of to get to that destination. It really is transforming how we view education and support across the state.

Ross Romano: I think that's a great context because certainly over, right over the past, couple of decades, multiple distinct [00:09:00] connotations that a lot of people I think have had around these phrases. You know, it, for some people, it was college or career, and they were two separate pathways. Other times, college and career meant that it was a necessarily linear thing.

And then there's, you know, a lot of times I think around career and technical, it was thought of as that. That necessarily meant non college, right? And none of that needs to be the case, and as you indicated it's about the end goal for everybody is that work, that career, that having the skills to have a high quality job and then understanding, okay, in that case and in the type of job that you're pursuing, what does it require to get there?

So Matt, I think that brings us to the opportunity presented a lot by this career exploration. In schools, There's a lot of talk [00:10:00] around the best practice of beginning with the end in mind, right? And saying, okay, what is, what do students need to know and be able to do? And then we work backward from there to determine what we need to teach them.

And what are the standards going to be? And how do we go about that? And so that gets them toward the end. When it was just as, you know, Richard referenced college as the destination, and it was just, look, if we can get you to college, then once you get there, you can figure it out. Okay. You know, due to the cost, of course, of tuition, due to the fact that even four years in college, if it's a four year program, is a relatively short amount of time if you get there with no idea what you're trying to study or learn.

Versus when we talk about the potential for kids while they're still in there. K to 12 years to have some exposure to the career exploration to start to get some understanding of what types of things are out there, what might they be interested in, and then begin to understand, all [00:11:00] right, if this is something I want to do, what does the pathway to that look like?

Does it look like a college degree? Is it a two year program? Is it a four year? Is it graduate school? Is it a different type, you know, not a college learning? But It's, you know, necessary to understand what it is first, right? But how do you, yeah, how have you observed and experienced in the work that you've been doing?

How the career exploration can, I think, enable students to make, hopefully, more informed decisions about what their post secondary goals are. Pathway should be looking like,

Matt Chausee: Sorry, was that for me,

Ross Romano: oh yeah, that's you

Matt Chausee: So, from, from, from our standpoint, first, you know, little anecdote first. So I spent six and a half years in college pursuing my four year degree. That's where I did my career exploration. So, so I mean, to your point, [00:12:00] yes, college can be a destination it's not the ideal destination because it's just one step in the path, right, to getting toward a career.

So, so a big part of what we're doing at CareerView is, is, is a passion project for, from my side. I, I don't want students to fall into that same trap that I fell into. Granted, things worked out well for me, but that's not the case for everyone. Just think about the number of students that spend years in college and.

don't end up with a degree and a career after that. And they end up in, in something that they could have jumped into right out of high school. A lot of that really, what we believe is that fundamentally comes down to the opportunity to explore and engage with different career opportunities throughout throughout their K 12 education.

And the very base of that is career awareness. And that's really the work that we're we're focusing on is closing what we call the career awareness gap. Because yeah, there's all this emphasis on creating these wonderful [00:13:00] CTE centers and dual credit, which I, I, support all of that. And I want to see students doing more of it.

How do you get a student deciding, do I want to take a welding class? Well, whatever they think about welding is whatever they've been told about it. And until they actually get to see someone who's doing the work or talk with someone who's doing that work, it, it, you never know what they're actually thinking.

And that's really what we're focusing on is creating authenticity around career awareness so that you can. Provide students with dozens, hundreds of different experiences that let them broaden the horizon and, and determine what's the full scope of what I could do and decide, Oh, I can see myself on top of wind turbine, or I can see myself as an accountant, or I could never see myself working, working with animals.

Both either one of those outcomes. From having been exposed [00:14:00] to and becoming aware of a career are positive outcomes, right? The other piece of the equation is parents and career counselors are critically important in helping students define what those paths are. But if you think about Most people's career journey, they've not been exposed to hundreds of different opportunities and not to the, not their fault at, at all.

It's just, we've not created an environment where that can happen. So one of the other things that we're really excited about and, and one of the things that we've started doing on, on the career view front is we're actually leveraging the platform to be a professional development opportunity for educators where.

Those career counselors who are want to do the best for their students, but their journey has been going to college doing their student teaching, becoming a teacher, maybe in a rural area. And then they're told by the principal, guess what? You're also the career counselor. Where in that journey was there an opportunity to really get exposed to all of the.

[00:15:00] all of the other opportunities that they need to be guiding these students toward. So, so that's something that also that we're really focused on with with our, our pursuit of increased career awareness is making sure that not just the students, but all of those key stakeholders in defining that career journey are aware of the opportunities that are out there so that we are helping the best, find the best fit for each individual student.

Ross Romano: Yeah. That, I mean, that's a, a great point that you made there about majority of people who are in the different roles in middle schools and high schools, right. Who are tasked with helping students prepare for their post-secondary career. They're, they're. expertise is not in economy and their expertise is not in what are all the different careers that are [00:16:00] out there and was it required to get there.

So as good as educators are and what they do and, and guidance counselors are what they do, there's a necessity I think for schools to tap into partnerships partnerships with. Companies who are in the industry, partnerships with their state level agencies, right? Partnerships with other people whose expertise is in that.

And I'm wondering what are some of the, you know, what are some of the important insights? To share. What are some of those conversations about to say, look, we know that at a high level, right? Of course, the goal of educators in our, our, you know, pre-K to 12 schools is. preparing students for the future.

But that doesn't mean that every single part of that or, or being able to counsel each of them at a [00:17:00] personalized level about, okay, you want to become this. I'm going to tell you exactly what it takes to get there. You know, that, that there is a requirement to tap into additional resources and support.

Matt, what, what are, what's some of the. content involved in that professional development. And then I'll have Richard talk from his perspective about this. But yeah, I think it's a great opportunity to maybe expand on what some of that looks like.

Matt Chausee: Yeah, well, the, the, on the professional development side, we're just piloting that right now. So we're learning ourselves on, on what that all looks like, but what we've been hearing just in how the, the CareerView platform has been implemented in schools over the past five years is that the, the authenticity of the experiences helps bridge the gap between not knowing and having an idea of what these environments are.

And that creates curiosity and questions. And those curious curiosities and questions are things that we've just pushed right back into how we approach the development of [00:18:00] new contents. We've got we've got 76 experiences in the library right now across a variety of, of industries and a lot of healthcare experiences, manufacturing experiences, energy, places that would be very difficult to get even an adult on site to see what those locations are and what, what the careers are all about.

But all of that information we're feeding back into how we create the content. Our approach toward increased career awareness where the, the programming within our, the professional development that we're working on includes connecting directly with your employers who are in those industries that you've now had a chance to take a glimpse inside a day in the life.

And actually as much as I'm immersive media, and I love the virtual reality videos that we're creating, that's just step one, right? There needs to be, there needs to be wraparound services around those things. There needs to be follow through on those things where, okay, next step is [00:19:00] let's talk to someone who's in the industry.

Next step is let's look at taking a CTE course that might help prepare you. Get on an actual job site tour. These are the things that become more, more practicable once you're aware of the industries and the opportunities that are out there.

Ross Romano: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, as I recall, I could be missing somebody and then of course, there's a diversity of backgrounds among educators out there, but. I remember I think all of my teachers had always been teachers. That was, they went into that profession and progressed through it, etc. And so they had a clear understanding of what their profession was but didn't necessarily know all the other things that were out there.

And when I was in high school I think I, The only real career guidance was there was a computer program we took one day and it spit out a couple of things and said you might be interested in this. And so [00:20:00] the things that even I thought that I was interested in when I went to college were things that I didn't personally know anybody who did those things.

I didn't, you know, exactly know how to, how to go about them. I ended up not going in those directions. But they weren't, it was nothing out off the beaten path. You know, I thought I might be interested in law, for example. I didn't, I didn't personally know any lawyers or anything. I mean, and that's not a, that's a job that a lot of people have, right?

It's not something that's, that's. super rare but that's going to be the case for a lot of, a lot of kids from a lot of places where no matter what it is that they want to pursue, either they're limited, you know, their imagination for what they might be interested in could be limited by their personal experience where their own, they only know what they've seen and then it's hard to think about what else might be out [00:21:00] there, or they might.

really want to pursue something totally different, but not really have anybody to talk to about it. And so, you know, the more, of course, that we can provide great resources for this through the schools, the better. Richard, in, in your case, what, you know, it looks like a lot of things, but what are some of the more critical, I guess, elements that you're wanting to be able to provide in support of educators to help them to either be able to access programs that are available or be able to guide students accordingly.

Richard Kincaid: Yeah, so I think both of you made some really good points. There's something that we often say, right? You can't be what you can't see. And so having. role models, having representation within particular fields is incredibly important. And so one of the things that we believe in Maryland is every student beginning [00:22:00] in elementary school and moving all the way to and through graduation is having a number of touch points.

with real, you know, related to career connected education. So, you know, at an elementary level, that probably is having high level conversations about what work looks like. You know, when I was in elementary school, I wanted to be an NFL football player, right? You know, and, and, you know, my kids, you know, they wanted to be firefighters, they wanted to be doctors and, You know, providing students with broad view of different careers that they may or may not have already been exposed to is really important.

Also teaching some of those things that we call 21st century skills. I like to just call them human skills, right? How to communicate. How to collaborate with one another, how to be good people, how to show up on time, right? Like these sort of concepts, when we start the [00:23:00] conversations early, show kids at that young age, perhaps occupations that they had never even thought of or even dreamed of, begins conversations around everything else that we're going to provide as supports within a school system.

And so as those students move through the school system, all of those experiences shift, like we provide more complex opportunities for students to experience the world of work. One of our goals in Maryland is honestly a pretty ambitious goal, but as part of the blueprint that I had talked about, 45 percent of every graduate in the state of Maryland by the year 2030 should complete the high school level of a registered apprenticeship program.

And so as a state, we're doubling down on jobs. [00:24:00] that don't require a two year or a four year degree, that are apprenticeshipable, right? It's a new word. We just, right here, you heard it first, right? Right here on this podcast. But working with companies like Amazon and Microsoft for IT related fields that no longer require a degree, working with, you know, state agencies around Maryland that historically have required a college diploma to access jobs.

that really have no specific requirements tied to a degree. It's opening up these possibilities for students and all of that begins with that exploration and that awareness component. One thing that Matt did say that I want to highlight is the importance of these conversations happening with career counselors.

So a number of school systems across the country have Folks that are able to [00:25:00] talk to middle school students about careers. Sometimes these are caring adults that come from workforce to come and present to students. In Maryland, about a year ago, we mandated that career counselors be hired at every school system across the state, many of them at the middle school level, so that these conversations could begin happening. Putting together a four year plan, having an idea of what your high school experience is going to look like before you even get there is a really nice way for students to really begin thinking about how the coursework that they're enrolling to, the CTE or other related experiences that they're going to have will prepare them for everything that's next.

And the final thing that I want to hit on, and then I'll turn it back to you all, is this [00:26:00] notion of you know, educators sometimes not knowing what they don't know. And one of the things that, and so I do see that You know, in every system that I've worked in, there's been some certain element of that, right?

So, you know, in education, we become very contextual. A math teacher is a math teacher is a math teacher, right? English teacher is not a math teacher. What we're really trying to do is double down on blurring the lines because we believe that when you are able to take courses like math and English and social sciences and contextually provide a career connection so that you're now providing less theory and more application of the content, then students perform better.

They show up to school at higher rates, discipline decreases, and the applicability of what's being learned in all of these classes. [00:27:00] now has meaning for students as they're moving into the workforce and that really creates a shift in a system. How we're leaning on that is we're really lucky in the world of CTE because oftentimes our engineering teachers were engineers.

Our health science instructors were nurses, folks that are teaching in IT and HVAC and welding. That's the industry that they started in and they made a specific choice. They chose to teach. And so I just want to call, you know, attention to that while it's still vastly important to engage business and industry partners We also have a lot of that talent and a lot of those resources already baked into the systems at least, you know, across the state of Maryland.

So, you know, a lot of ways that we can elevate that knowledge for [00:28:00] sure really proud of, of the expertise that, that currently lives in classrooms as well.

Ross Romano: Yeah, I mean, that's a great point about how the relevance and making the learning real world relevant improves learning in all subjects, right? It's something we talk about a lot, but making the direct connection to this piece around, again, exploring and understanding how might you use this, how might you want to use this.

You know, if, if you're always taught math, Absent context. A lot of people think, okay, at a certain point, I'm not going to need this because it's taught in this kind of, you know, this environment that it just doesn't, like, when, when am I going to just be sitting around doing math problems in the future, but

Richard Kincaid: I mean, right? Like, can you imagine, like, taking your car in for a brake job and the person who is trying to convert, like, ratios to know, like, how far to grind you know, your rotors? Like, if they weren't good at [00:29:00] that, you're putting your family's safety In the hands of somebody who didn't have that experience of contextualizing math, it's scary.

These things don't operate in vacuums, and, and when we're able to reach across disciplines, make the content real, everybody flourishes.

Ross Romano: Yeah. And it's also, you know, thinking about not just the contextualization for students to understand when they would need to use certain information to hopefully have them engaged in saying, okay, I better make sure I know this because it is something I will need in the future, but also they might want to do it, right?

To say that there's subjects that are that a student might be really good in, but not have the connections to say, how can I turn this into a career? How can I turn this into a job? This is something I'm really good at. I really enjoy it. But what is, you know, how [00:30:00] can I use this to something I want to aspire to?

Versus just, I'll be required to have this knowledge because I need to know about personal finance or I need to, you know, whatever the case may be, right, with different subject areas. And that's, again, that fuels everything we're talking about here because we want students to be able to make decisions about things that they're really interested in and where they see a great opportunity for them and their family.

And hopefully the more that happens, you're going to have. a lot more you know, variety and diversity and we'll, and we'll fill more of the different hard to fill roles that are out there versus having everybody funneled into the same couple of things. Because whatever is the hot topic right now, that we would say, okay, if we look at the current landscape of where are their needs, you know, there's needs for labor in this area, in this area.

You can drill that into everybody's head now. And then every, you [00:31:00] know, everybody who's 14 to 17 year old now starts pursuing that variety of things. And then in 10 years, it's like, oh, there's no jobs in those areas because everybody for 10 years was trying to do the same thing. And now we have shortages over here.

Right? And those, you know, that part of that you said, not, you know, not knowing what you don't know. Sometimes it's also It's the metacognition of that. It's being aware that there's certain things we can't necessarily know. We can make our best predictions for the future. We can make our best predictions for what AI technologies are going to mean for the workforce and things like that, right?

But also understand that there's going to be things that we can't necessarily anticipate. And so having a variety of high, you know, highly evolved skills and just a knowledge and awareness of how to create things. And just how to navigate will help because everybody's going to have [00:32:00] to probably make different decisions as their life and as their career continues.

Richard Kincaid: And it's such an expansive universe too, like I was, something you had just said that, that sort of me start thinking about just Jobs that exist within a community. So oftentimes when we're planning new programs, we look at labor market data, where are the jobs, right? And so if you think of a place, I don't know, Detroit, like when I think of Detroit, I think auto industry.

So, you know, line worker, you know, assembling a car, that would be a very easy place to just think about. That's the labor market. How do I fill those roles? But there are all of these adjacencies too. So at Ford, you know, they have an IT department, they have line workers, they have repair folks for the robots on the line, they have a restaurant and hospitality industry, they have a human resources department, they have [00:33:00] finance.

And so even within these companies, that seemingly have, you know, one set thing that they do, a product that they create. It's this education for, for students and, and for our community that there are all of these other support positions, some requiring college, many not. And unless we start having targeted conversations of the jobs that build community and all of the jobs that exist within that community.

We're not providing all of the various options for, for our students. And so just being mindful, all of the various things that, that students can do, and oftentimes students don't know.

Ross Romano: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's a really apt example because in our last conversation, Matt, we had had the Abdul Vaki, with us, who's a principal in the Detroit area who has implemented programs at her school to give her students some direct experience with [00:34:00] the automotive industry there. And it's a great point that obviously everybody who lives in Michigan is very aware of the prominence of that industry.

And yet, as a default, schools weren't necessarily preparing students to be ready to take on those jobs. Either specific roles, or as you said, in these large companies, there's a number of different things that are happening. Pretty much anything you might want to do, you might be able to do for a company like that.

I've had these conversations in the past when I started my career in the sports industry and, you know, and have had done some career talks with people who work in that field for high schoolers to say, if this is something you love, you're a big, fan of sports, right? The jobs that are visible to you on TV is like You know, 5 percent of it, right?

I, you know, [00:35:00] you, you said you want to be a football player when you were, well, and because that's what you would have seen, but you could have been an accountant or a lawyer, or you could have done communications or marketing or sales and customer service, right? These companies have all these different roles and it's, it's getting the understanding and exposure.

And, and Matt, I'm sure you have so many different. types of career fields and job roles that students are able to explore through career of UXR. And I'm curious if there's any trends or just any, you know, anything that you've noticed as far as things that students become very interested in once they are aware of it, right?

Matt Chausee: You know, it's really interesting because Students don't know what they're interested in a lot of times until, until they see it, or they get to experience a bit of it and [00:36:00] really from our standpoint to help ensure that happens part of what we're really working to do is create curiosities within the platform that, that just get people interested.

kids excited about exploring. We, we just, so we're based in North Dakota. We've produced a lot of content here, but we're working on a national expansion and have started producing content in other markets. We just got back from Maine where I was, spent two days on a lobster fishing boat. Being able to bring that experience that that's an experience that's going to be delivered to students all across the country.

And it may or may not get, More well, it probably won't get a student from North Dakota heading out to Maine to become a lobster fisherman. Maybe that'll happen, but there's increased awareness of that industry and something that they've never seen before. And now commercial fishing and transportation and logistics.

I mean, all of the things that are adjacent to that industry are now, now industries that are, that more students are aware of.

Ross Romano: Yeah, I [00:37:00] think it's again, I mean, it's relevant for everyone at that often. And I'm sure this has probably been something that you put a lot of thought effort into Richard. It's that when we talk about can't be what you can't see or, you know, what, what do students have a reference point for, right, of things they might want to do.

Certainly that relates to equity and access and the understanding that Whether it's a potential first generation college student or, you know, a student growing up in an area where there's, you know, not considered to be a high amount of economic opportunity that clearly, but it applies to everybody, right?

Because every, you know, other than maybe a very, very, very small percentage, I mean, almost every [00:38:00] kid, you has limitations in what they've been personally exposed to and what they might want to be able to do. And their reference points, it's kind of chance, whether or not it aligns with where there will continue to be opportunity in the future, where the needs are societally, right?

You know, where they can make the best impact, where they can be the most fulfilled, where they can build the life that they want, and also where they're Going to know that if they commit to that path, that it's going to continue to pay off for them. And that's, I guess that's part of, and maybe it relates to, there's other data, whether qualitative or quantitative, that supports the necessity of evolving these programs.

And saying that the way that it's been done in the past. is not good enough and aligned with, [00:39:00] you know, current and future needs that we need to keep evolving this because this entire generation is going to need, you know, a better way forward.

Richard Kincaid: Yeah, and I'm, I'm glad that you mentioned the equity and the access component because a lot of times, When you really dig into the data and you see, you know, differences between, you know, students based on race or gender or any of the other sort of special population markers that, that are used, can dig a little bit deeper in how resources are being invested into communities.

For these sort of career awareness and exploration activities, you can see where different programs are being stood up around the state. So do we find that engineering programs are being [00:40:00] disproportionately built in? More affluent areas and trades programs are being disproportionately stood up in, in less affluent areas seems, you know, like, it's not a big deal at first, but ultimately the underlying issue here is we're robbing every student from having the opportunity to explore.

And thrive in, in a wide variety of options. And I think this is why, you know, having resources and tools, particularly. When we're talking about career awareness and exploration, this becomes so critical because not every micro community can offer direct experiences of every job that may be beneficial throughout a state or across the country.

They might not have the expertise either. And so I think about parts of Maryland [00:41:00] that are rural where agriculture reigns supreme. There are us also, you know, more populated areas. So I live just north of Silver Spring in Maryland and, you know, in Montgomery County, it's You know, large city, you know, the large corporations, there's not a whole lot of agricultural jobs where I live.

And what's happening right now is my kids have a great understanding of what IT looks like. They have a great understanding of what engineering looks like. They have no idea where food comes from and more especially the jobs that. You know, get the food, you know, from the farm to the supermarket to my table.

And, and I think as a, as a state, as a country, you know, having more intentional. understandings of where we're investing our resources, where we're [00:42:00] providing specific opportunities for students, and making sure that across an entire spectrum of employment and career fields and post secondary opportunities that include college or apprenticeship or internships, that every student has that understanding of of what they like, what their passions are, and then also understanding how to get from where they are to that next place, depending, you know, entirely on those passions.

Heading towards that career, the only way that we can do that is being really intentional about comprehensive career awareness opportunities for them as early as possible.

Ross Romano: Yeah. Yeah. And Matt yeah, go ahead.

Matt Chausee: No, I, I was just gonna agree 100 percent with, with Richard that earlier and more diverse career exploration is so critically important and they're, [00:43:00] they're beyond. So I come from a very rural state and yes, there are, there are rural challenges for, you know, equitable career access and exposure. But there are, there are also issues that, that are just pervasive because of the time, geography, safety, financial, privacy constraints that, that restrict us from getting students into the places that we want to be able to show them what the job is like.

I was very fortunate as a high school student. I was able to job shadow a family practice physician, and I got to see the charts, and I got to go into the rooms and see procedures, and that rarely, if ever, happens now, and it certainly doesn't happen at scale, and you can't, you know, You can't get kids excited about healthcare if they don't understand what opportunities might exist there and being able to authentically represent those, it's, it's just, it's so important to broaden that base and have students thinking about all of the things [00:44:00] that they might love to do.

Ross Romano: Yeah, and perhaps beginning these programs earlier is part of the answer to the question about the discourse, I think, that exists, you know, still around college versus non college that it's not clearly, you know, the point of all of this is that The identification of a career field that a student wants to go into and then pursuing the appropriate pathways to be able to do that means that There's not a better or worse or more aspirational or less aspirational way to go about it.

Right. When I was in school, you know, I think it was like kids were basically filtered based on whether they were considered like academically achieving or not. And if they weren't high academic achievers, they. were filtered into what was called [00:45:00] the VOTEC, right, pathway, and if they were, then it was, it wasn't even presented that you wouldn't be aspiring to college if you were a high academic achiever, even though it didn't necessarily relate to what you may or may not want to do.

But of course, like, empowering students to feel Like, they really can take advantage of the opportunities that they want to having their families be aware and supportive of that, still requires some change in the discourse, because I think a lot of times, like, there's an earned defensiveness among them.

trades, right? Of like, you know, and that's why there's like this antagonism about like the, you know, the different, whether it was a college or a non college pathway. And then, you know, somebody who academically is perfectly capable of going to college, but may be interested in a career that doesn't [00:46:00] require that, or that there's a better way might. feel like they have to because that's what they're supposed to do. And perhaps, you know, I, and I think there's different ways to, to hopefully improve that perspective and improve the dialogue and just, and make it more about, look, what we're trying to do is have everybody understand how to achieve the outcomes they want and to do the right things to, to be able to do that.

But I'm sure that early exposure Can be part of that to say, look, the more that we are coming to our own conclusions about what we're genuinely interested in and seeing that as a goal that we're working toward and learning how to do it versus getting to the point where we're just being told by our school, well, these are the kinds of things for you.

You know, that, that, that can't, that can't help, but. make, I guess, individuals feel more ownership over that.

Richard Kincaid: mean, I think you [00:47:00] hit the nail on the head, Ross, and it almost brings us full circle to the beginning of this conversation. And, you know, I'm reminded of that quote. Gosh, I think it was Albert Einstein everyone is a genius, but if you judge a fish by its ability to claim a treat, it'll live its whole life believing that it's stupid, right?

And, and I, I really believe that when we are talking about exploration and awareness. For all students, all means all. It's connecting students who, you know, are served through the IEP process, through 504 services, you know, students that traditionally have fit that old tracking model in CTE where, you know, the college bound kids go here and the vocational kids go there.

Like, that's not really where we are anymore, and thinking about this sort of career exploration [00:48:00] and exposure and getting students to think about career pathways, there are literally jobs for anyone. There are jobs for everyone, right? And making sure that these students have great access to a number of careers.

understand how to start here and get there, and then have the wraparound supports along the way that are provided through, you know, our exceptional public school systems. That's how we make sure that students get to the next place. their destination, a career, right? It's an entire system. It takes everybody having a good understanding of the supports, having a good understanding of the jobs, and then having a an even better understanding that it takes all of us in a community to make sure that our students are achieving their hopes, their dreams, and [00:49:00] also helping our economies flourish.

Ross Romano: Yeah. Matt, do you have thoughts on you know, how to, how to positively influence that dialogue? Cause as far as I have seen, maybe I missed something, but in your marketing materials for career of UXR, I haven't seen anything that says this is for your kids who you don't think are capable of going to college.

Give it to the other ones, right? Like this is for all kids to get good perspective and exposure and then to make their own decisions.

Matt Chausee: Yeah, and I think Richard, Described or outlined that that community approach that that supports approach beautifully. And and our our role in that is to be that earliest stage awareness to make sure that students aren't missing missing out on an opportunity to pursue that dream job just because. No one ever showed it to them or because there was a barrier in place that could have been easily overcome by, you know, spending the time to understand the location and go there and [00:50:00] and create something that can be easily accessed.

I just, We're really excited with, with the, the positive outcomes that we're starting to see with things like, I'll share a couple anecdotes. We had a young lady that tells me, I want to see that bricklayers experience and she's fourth grade. I'm like, really? She says, yeah, I want to see the bricklayers experience.

Okay. So I pulled it up in the VR headset. She puts it on, she's looking around and says, Oh, wow, that looks so satisfying. Look at the patterns. And. Takes the headset off and looks at me and says, I think I want to be a bricklayer that that may or may not happen, but she's aware that careers in construction are a viable opportunity for her.

She saw that she she saw women in construction within that experience. And I think that the. Working to break down those perceived barriers that, that are put in place are, are one of the most critical pieces to, to ensuring that there can be success in, in taking that, that community based approach. And we're glad to be a small part [00:51:00] in, in that journey.

Ross Romano: Yeah. Awesome. I think we could talk about this for a long, long, long, long, long time. We'll talk about it more again in the future. But to sort of tie or, you know, to put a, to put a bow on this conversation, I think there's one final piece that I'd love to hear each of your thoughts on. And it is given all that we've been discussing here and given the reality that there, you know, there's a democratization of access to information, right?

With all the, everything that's online and all the various ways to learn things. That there are a lot of career fields that I would say that traditionally did require a college education that don't necessarily require it anymore, other than if the employer decides to make it a requirement. But there's other ways to learn some of that knowledge.

[00:52:00] What? Do you think or hope that colleges and universities might now think about doing to differentiate themselves, to, you know, provide, The, the value that they should be providing to the students who are coming there in pursuit of their preparation to career field. Is there anything that's either, you know, maybe happening already or that, that could happen to, to just make sure that in this new, right, in this new era that each of these pathways is continuing to evolve and redefine its value and provide, you know, great value.

Matt, I'll let you give any thoughts that you have on that, and then and then we'll have Richard.

Matt Chausee: Yeah, I do. Actually, I was in higher ed administration for 10 years prior to prior to my wife and I starting the company. And also we talk with a lot of employers right now. And when you're in higher education, the pursuit of knowledge for the sake of pursuing knowledge, that's, [00:53:00] that's the rah, rah, rah, you know, that, that's, that's kind of had been the mantra for a long time.

Yeah. But that's also how colleges get that ivory tower perception, which is not always unearned. I guess I'd say but I think that what we're starting to see is. Colleges are starting to see the success of CTE programs, or four year universities, specifically, are starting to see the success of CTE programs and two year colleges.

And what employers are, a lot of the employers we talk with, what they're saying is, when a student graduates with that bachelor's degree, we want them to have transferable skills that have been learned during the course of that. four year education, not just the gen eds, the requireds, and now we're training you once you get here.

So I think that higher ed and, and four year institutions in particular, don't necessarily need, they shouldn't mirror the two year approach, but they need to start looking at some of the lessons learned there if they want to stay [00:54:00] relevant. Because employers are going to start expecting that there are those skills coming straight out of Those four year institutions, and if that's not happening, those employers are going to find those employees somewhere else.

Ross Romano: Yeah. Richard?

Richard Kincaid: Yeah, I agree with, with Matt. I think, I think probably our economy will dictate you know, supply and demand will dictate sort of the transitions that the entire post secondary world needs to, to take. And I think well, here in Maryland, we're thinking about this in, in a number of different ways.

So, apprenticeship is one way to get to a career, and historically, these have always been in the trades. There are so many additional opportunities now where apprenticeship makes a whole lot of sense. And as part of those registered apprenticeship programs, the related instruction is that [00:55:00] classroom learning that coincides with the on the job training.

Some of that related instruction can happen through traditional high school CTE programs. A lot of it can also happen through non degree programs at a community college. Some of that can also happen with the employer. So some of your large national employers or labor unions have their own curriculums for that related instruction.

And that really is a different way of looking at how we might instruct students that are going into fields like IT or business or accounting or other fields. I think community college can also offer a number of opportunities through either the degree side of the house or the workforce, the non degree side of the house.

Rapid training to go in particular fields is sort of their bread and butter, like, these are colleges within, as the name, wait for it, describes, are in the community that [00:56:00] support, like, your high school programs, it supports your workforce programs. And that in and of itself can be a really amazing resource for students to learn.

And then four year institutions and beyond, I think this is where we've seen a lot of excess probably over the last couple of decades. And a lot of it is tuition driven, a lot of it is, is market driven because we've had this college going mindset. I think the last couple of years have been sort of a wake up call for some of these institutions.

of needing to be more intentional about how they are connecting to and preparing students to go into the workforce. Each one of these sectors has to exist within the system. I would never advocate that any one of these three buckets that I've described should go away. I think what I have described though is it needs to be an intentional [00:57:00] reinvigoration of what the purpose of each one of these levels is to meet the needs of an ever changing global economy.

And, and that means we have to do things differently across the board. In order to meet the challenges that we have in front of us right now.

Ross Romano: Yeah. Yeah, that's, those are all great points, and I, you know, from, from what I've observed, I, I think there's a lot of things that four year institutions can be learning from those community college and two year institutions around competency based pathways, around more, much more proactive guidance and advisement.

Some of the things we talked about being challenging in the high schools that colleges can do a lot better, right? Of, of, you know, that most of them, the resources are available but they're not necessarily [00:58:00] going out and saying, look, the, we're here to deliver outcomes. And for a long time with the rising, you know, increasing tuition rates and everything, but with the paradigm that existed There wasn't necessarily that accountability to prove that ROI or to say, okay, if you're going to a school, that's not the elite of the elite, but the tuition kind of is you know, is it worth that investment?

And so there's so many great things that. can be learned and, you know, the, the experience of it and the knowledge and the access to different types of fields at universities. But ultimately, what can we do to ensure that the students who make that decision to attend are having the outcomes that they want?

And are we being responsible and accountable for that the same way that happens? So there's a lot of great opportunities. And as you. Both said all of [00:59:00] these pathways are really critically important and, you know, and, and as I say a lot of times about options and, and equity and access, it only works if There are a number of high quality options.

Right? If only one thing is working and the others aren't, then it's no longer a choice. There's no longer an option. There's no longer, you know, and so all of them need to work the way they're supposed to work. And then we'll have a great future here. So I really appreciate both of you being here. As it, you know, probably sounds to our listeners, this is a conversation that there's so much more to say, but hopefully you've all, you know, gotten some great value out of this and, and please do you know, follow up on this.

We'll put the information below for where you can connect with our guests and learn more about them. So if you're interested in the work they're doing please, you know, follow through on that and check that out. Please also do subscribe to the show. If you haven't already, we'll have a [01:00:00] lot more great conversations coming up here with all of our startups.

Matt and Richard, thanks so much for being here.

Richard Kincaid: Thanks Ross. Nice to meet you, Matt.

Matt Chausee: Nice to meet you too, Richard. Thanks, Ross.