EdTech Startup Showcase

Scott (00:00.204)
You're listening to the Ed Tech Startup Showcase, an original series produced by the B podcast network. Hi, everyone, and thanks for joining us again. My name is Scott Chudy. I'll be your host for today, and I'm going to be taking you through the stories of some of the wonderful emerging companies in Ed Tech. And today we're going to go back, back and check in with our friends from Classroom Mosaic, learn how they're doing, how things have changed, what they've learned. And with us again, our good friend,

Ben Guffstason. Ben, welcome back to the show.

Hey, thanks, Scott. Thanks for having me. We're definitely excited to kind of talk about our story and our history with Greenville. And we've got Jeff McCoy here with us. we're definitely excited to kind of dive into that today.

Jeff McCoy, you're here with us today. Could you tell us a little bit about why you're here? What's your story? What brought you to work with Ben in Classroom Mosaic?

So I'm I've been the associate superintendent here in Greenville for the last about nine years been 26 years in Greenville We've been doing a about a 10 year transformation model process if you will or implementation and so we actually came across Ben and class of mosaic when we were looking to electronic size if that's a word our Observation tool moved from a kind of a traditional system of paper pens or Google Docs

Jeff (01:24.408)
to a more system that will give us a little bit more insight on observations and what was happening in our classroom so that we could hopefully transform instruction.

So that's really interesting. And I do think you just coined a new word. So I'll make sure that we get that into the dictionary. I think that that's really awesome. So what were some of the opportunities before you electronicized your work? What were some of the opportunities that you were facing?

So I think one of the things we had been doing was really working with our principals on how to give really good feedback to teachers so that they could change classroom practice and ultimately improve student outcomes. However, we really didn't have any glimpse into that process because everything was paper pencil or on a Google form. So it was very difficult to actually see what was happening. So we were looking for a tool that would allow us to kind of see and to do some coaching around.

hey, let's pull up this observation, let's look at it, and let's kind of figure out, you know, could we have given better feedback? Could we have done something differently that teach you to help improve instruction? So we were ultimately looking for a tool that would give us a little bit more systems level insight.

So talk to me a little bit about that process vetting, know, sending out requests for opportunities like I hate to say it like how many frogs did you kiss before you met Ben?

Jeff (02:48.428)
Well, we actually looked, there wasn't a whole lot on the market actually at that time from an observation tool standpoint, if you will. So that was a fairly easy process and we glanced to see what was out there. Didn't find a whole lot and Ben was really good about coming in and being out, really working with us from the ground up to say, what do you need? What are you trying to do? And so be able to kind of customize a lot of that, his tool, if you will.

to meet our needs was something that was very appealing to us.

So kind of a bespoke approach to your opportunity. Yeah, I really think that's super important these days. Like, you know, one size doesn't fit all, right? One solution doesn't solve for everything. So the opportunity to build partnerships and deliver on things that are going to be necessary for your business and your business, but your, you know, your facility and your opportunity, I think is really, really important. so Jeff, talk to me a little bit about that process working with Ben and coming up with

Yes, for sure.

Scott (03:50.082)
bespoke solutions for your district.

So Ben already had a really strong platform, him and Tyler with the Classroom Mosaic platform. I would say that because every district is so unique in what observation forms they use, a of those are customized. We had, for example, built our own. So it wasn't one that we borrowed from the state or from another company, if you will. We built our own. So really was working with Ben to design the observation tool we wanted to put in our system.

And then from there, just kind of tweaking some things out. So for example, what data we wanted to get at the end of the school year. So some customized reports to be able to quickly show, here's how many observations are done. Here's what areas that we are struggling the most in based on the principal's ratings in the classrooms. So it was a fairly strong process of kind of developing, I guess, together on kind of as we went over the, you know, probably two or three years, I guess.

Yeah, absolutely. And really, think that's kind of one of our core beliefs, if you will. It's like baked into who we are. It's baked into the platform that every, it just says every school, know, every district is different, every school is different. And so every account is different. And we go through a fairly robust process with each one of our clients to make sure, and that's actually on a yearly basis, that their account captures the things that they need to.

They have the reporting that they need and very often, you know, in like an individual school, they'd be able to do that themselves. And so it is very much designed to be an iterative process because each year you learn stuff, right? And so we ourselves believe very strongly in a continuous improvement mindset. so the tools and the platform is set up to facilitate that on an individual basis, but then also across.

Ben (05:43.138)
all of the things that we do in support with clients. so, yeah, that's a very typical process that we do. so like Jeff mentioned, they have their own instructional framework. So we took that and added that to the platform. And that's the same thing with VC and the vast majority of our clients is that they'll have, they'll take something like a framework and then either modify it or add it to their own account.

That sounds really great before I get into results like was there anything in the process you know as you iterate and as you test type you know all that other good stuff that you didn't expect like did anything happen that you didn't expect that you had to change and or learn from?

Jeff (06:28.27)
I don't know if there's anything for us at least on our side. think one the we learn from, which I think is always how do you do kind of an iterative process is really our principal feedback. So we set things up with Ben the way we kind of thought would work and would work best. And then kind of after that first year, really six months of principals using it, they kind of came back and said, hey, it'd be great if we could do this. Or are we really awesome if we had the ability to do this? And a lot of times it was just mentioning that to Ben and then Ben turning around or Tyler.

putting that in the system. So, you know, I think a lot of times with school districts you you build in what you think teachers need or principals need or whoever your audience's needs and a lot of times really the power of putting it out there and actually let people using it in the classroom, let people try it and then they come back with all these really good ideas about hey, it would really be powerful if we could do such a site. So we learned a lot that first year I think for our principals implementing it and really helped inform some of the product development for the future.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, in in with that, that's one of the things that we kind of see as a differentiator of our platform is not only can you customize the form, but you can also then go and customize the actual observation process. So like what happens before what happens after when you know when people get notified if they get summaries all kinds of different stuff and and so that's some of the stuff that Jeff is talking about that we iterated through. So it's not just the content of the form per se, but it is the overall delivery of the.

the coaching feedback and what is that that coaching cycle really look like. And of course that changes right as as the culture changes and things shift in the school district. So again, that's that's that's just something that we as a black hair or I'm very well equipped to support and we see our clients iterate through those things all the time.

Yeah, yeah. That's great. That's awesome. Listen, I want to talk a little bit about culture, right? So talk to me about some of the culture changes that that occurred initially and over over time as you implemented this tool.

Jeff (08:32.174)
So I think probably for us, the biggest thing, I think the biggest impact ultimately does have is on student achievement. Being able to help our leaders, our assistant principals and our principals become better instructional leaders through this, really this ultimately this process. But this gave us a glimpse into really what were people writing. We didn't have that opportunity before. never knew, you know, at the end of the day, we knew they were doing observations, but at the end of day, we didn't know, was that just great job? Enjoyed seeing your classroom today.

Or was that actually giving feedback that would improve classroom practice? And so with this gave us the transparency into those class, not from a punitive standpoint, but to be able to say, hey, let's sit down. Let's actually talk about what it looks like to give specific actionable, timely feedback to teachers or what that can do in increasing instructional outcomes for students. for us, that was probably the biggest benefit of really looking at

that feedback that principles were giving or system principles and then kind of coaching them through that process on how to get better at giving quality feedback, which we know research says if you do that, then you'll have instructional improvement in class.

Absolutely, and that's one of the things that we hear so consistently is transparency into the day to day process, right? And the kind of the other thing that we have seen, and I think Jeff would probably also say that this is one of the things that changed for them is just the number of observations or one of the things that we think about is just purely time spent in the classroom. Research says that that's also correlated right to student achievement and

And change in a structural practice and and I was actually just this is a different high school, but I was just talking to high school that did five times the number of observations this year with class. I was like than they did last year with Google Forms and and and I think in a lot of schools in Greenville they would say the same. Maybe it's not five times right? That's that's we often see double or triple and and that's simply because the process is is so easy that people actually do it.

Ben (10:39.822)
And that means that the teachers get feedback. so that might, don't know, Jeff, you might be able to speak to that as well from a teacher perspective, but the consistency of feedback and the knowing that they're going to get feedback when somebody leaves the classroom really helps with the observation anxiety.

Yeah, I think it I think it's also you know, there is an accountability measure to it as well. I mean, you know, it's easy for our leaders sometimes to get distracted with the operational stuff. And so I think this also brings a little bit of clarity back to say, you know, hey, our principal supervisors, those who oversee principals, all teachers deserve feedback. And it's important that you're in the classrooms and you're giving feedback. It's important that you prioritize instructional time in the classroom. So there's certainly that element, I believe, increases to your point, those observations.

Is knowing at the end of the year your supervisor is going to ask you, hey, then let's look at your observations and did you get X amount of observations per teacher as we require? So that certainly brings another level of transparency and accountability to it.

Yeah, that's all really great. You mentioned about student achievement going up. Do have any examples or maybe some testimonials that you wouldn't mind sharing with our audience of we implemented this and we got that?

So it's always hard to pinpoint to a tool. We're in the middle of multiple niches right now. So our test scores are getting going up. Unfortunately, each year, year over year for the last seven or eight, nine years. I think for us, what it did though, what I think we can point to, anecdotally, I think we can point to the fact that our principles are a lot more instructionally focused, particularly on observations. We did two years worth of instruction once a month, twice a month with principles.

Jeff (12:21.326)
and assistant principal that first year really focusing and honing in on what does it look like to give kind of the mechanics behind? What does it look like to give specific actual timely feedback to teachers? What is it? What does that actually mean? And what does that look like when you're doing it again through classroom mosaic is the tool. But what does it look like when that happens? And so we spent a good two years really focused on how do we do that so?

Yeah, scores continue to go up. Can't pinpoint necessarily back to one specific tool or one this one specific thing. But we know that again, because we're following what the research says that we're continuing to get those gains and there was results in our test scores.

Yeah, and I will say I'm actually looking at the dashboard right now. You guys have done over 50,000 observations just since you guys have started, which is a few years like what is it three years ago and how tremendous that is. And sometimes like across from a week by week basis over a fifth of your teachers were getting feedback just in that individual week and how transformative that can be from a cultural perspective. Just like what you were saying, this focus on instruction.

It changes the conversations that we're having and so that alone, know, it quantity isn't everything, right? There's a quality aspect to that, but that gives some indication of just how how used classrooms it was right in and is in Greenville.

Well, I certainly wouldn't balk at 50,000 observations. That's a lot. That's a heck of a lot. I wish I had even a fraction of that when it comes to the kinds of opportunities that I give to people or the presentations I give. I get nothing, which is interesting and fine, but that's my problem. if you think about, and we've talked a little bit about the student scores going up and changing the dynamics of the conversation and all that kind of stuff.

Scott (14:17.966)
Culturally, from a staff perspective, have you noticed any changes about how they feel about their job and the impact that they have in the culture that you're building in your district?

So I would say that we started several years before we actually implemented Classroom Mosaic. We started, we worked with a consultant and Bill, with Diane Sweeney actually, and actually built a student centered coaching model. We went from a model where observations were really only done for teachers who were underperforming to an observation model where everybody deserves feedback to get better, no matter what level of teacher you are, beginner towards the end of your career and the middle of your career.

So we kind of had been setting the stage for several years prior to this implementation on shifting that culture from observations are bad, I can't believe an administrator is coming in my classroom, to really looking at that as a positive thing, like this is an opportunity for me to grow. We really try to shift a lot of our professional development, less of sit and get to more of that coaching, if you will, in the classrooms. And so this is a tool and a vehicle that we do that with and to.

For us, I think we had to kind of set the stage for two years to really shift that culture so it wasn't looked as a negative thing, but it was more looked at as a positive thing. And teachers do have the opportunity to reflect. I look at those reflections quite frequently in Classroom Mosaic. So once a principal does an observation, the teacher then has an opportunity to go in and reflect on that observation. They can explain things, fill in gaps. They can wonder. They can clear up any information that might be in there.

Hopefully what we're trying to create is kind of a two-way street. The principal may go in and recommend some things. Say I didn't see this. Have you tried this? Or have you thought about this? And the teacher can go in and really reflect on that. Say yeah, I had thought about that. I'll try that in my next lesson when I do this again. So ultimately, that's what we're trying to create is a coaching culture and a two-way kind of communication with our principals and our teachers.

Ben (16:16.918)
Yeah, I get, Jeff, you share, I think you shared this over the summer at one of the presentations I was in, but how you've changed recently the coaching cycles along with the administrative observations and just some of your thinking around when and how observations happen.

I have some wonderful things that we started looking at for maximum impact and this is you know, I would say one of the flaws when I started looking at classroom observations is that they are a lot of times either operational and they're a checkbox many times. Principal or administration says you have to do four so you do four throughout the year and one might be in August, one might be in November, one might be in you know January, one might be in May.

Very few ministers, if any, are going back and looking at those previous observations to kind of say, hey, what did I give Scott back feedback last time on so I can build upon that? Life has a relevant because you're not in the same lesson. So one of the things we really have pushed our schools to do and moving, I think more of our schools now do it than not, is really kind of clustered observations where we're doing a six week cycle where that administrator is going in six weeks, week after week, so that they can actually, when they give the feedback to the teacher,

They can actually go back that very next week and actually see, yeah, the teacher actually took that advice to heart. And I can see that now. I already see the change in the way the students are behaving or the way they're managing the classroom or the way they're getting out of their group discussion because the teacher put protocols in place. So that has been a little bit more effective. When Ben mentioned those 50,000 observations, when you multiply out the amount of time that takes to do 50,000 observations, we want to make sure that time is well spent.

spreading observations four times out over the year or six times out over the year is not using your time wisely. So this really gives us an opportunity to cluster those together so we can see immediate improvement from week to week in those observations and those recommendations.

Ben (18:09.996)
Yeah, and and one of the things that we're doing as a platform is adding a brilliant AI coach or a component to where when you're in the classroom you can ask it to summarize previous observations and previous coaching that's happened to really help the schools that potentially have many people that walk into the classroom and you know the administrator might be in there in like it might be a two months right between the time the administrators in the classroom, but there's other people that go in and and give some coaching feedback and so that.

the learning arc or the coaching arc for the teacher, that AI assistant is going to be helpful for that. But I think what we've heard definitely out of Greenville is that those, of course, it's a coaching cycle. You're taking that administrator time and moving it much more closer to a coaching cycle. And that is tremendously effective because you get this very high, it's almost high doses tutoring, High doses coaching for the teacher to move instructional practice and have that.

that support that's very consistent and that has we've seen that be quite effective.

It's great, you know from a learning perspective, you know we we do things to change behavior to get results right and from a learning perspective some the things that drive me nuts or people that. You know, check the box feel good activities. So when you mentioned like hey, I'm just going to observe four times a year here I am. I'm Jeff. I'm showing up. I'm observing. I'm checking the box. I feel really good about it, but doesn't necessarily lead to the behavior change or the culture change or the kind of results that we're looking for.

And so I'm super excited that we have, you know, Ben, your program and your platform that can really help identify where those gaps are, create a culture of change, constant never-ending improvement, but hold everybody accountable to like, hey, listen, we all want the same thing. Like we want our students to achieve and, you know, go on and be productive and have great lives. But, you know, from a professional perspective, I want to grow and I want to get better too, right? And so...

Scott (20:11.458)
I really think that that's kind of the win-win scenario that we're looking for that I think that Classroom Rosek is really delivering. So what's next? Right? So we've talked about some really great wins. We talked about how you partnered together and everything. What's next? What are we trying to do next with the platform and your district?

That's a great question. the probably the biggest thing that they they're doing next school year is is rounding out all of the evaluation processes for all certified staff. So now that's going to include like instructional coaches and school librarians and in really any of the like the special area kind of folks if you wanted to call them that they've already done at the

the teacher, the core teachers for a few years in MOSAIC. just, guess, one of the things to highlight that I think they've done, which is particularly interesting, is separated the instructional feedback. So the instructional framework that they use is a different framework than the evaluation framework. And so I guess, Jeff, can you kind of unpack that a little bit about that intentional decision and how that has impacted the conversations in Charlie?

Yeah, we really want to try to separate evaluation from coaching as much as we could. I don't know that you can always devoid those on to but we with the state evaluation system that we have in courses, Ben said that's now rolling into class of Mosaic. The observation walkthrough that our principals use to day to day if you will to go and observe teachers that's actually built on our instructional protocol. That instructional protocol is what our teachers use to plan. It's four areas, culture, assessment, teaching.

and instructional delivery. So those four areas that they use when they're planning, those are the exact same four areas that the principals are looking for in the system principals when they walk into the classrooms. So there's questions under each one or look for us if you will, under each one of those categories. So typically they're not looking for all four of those. They're typically walking into a classroom for 20 minutes observing and saying, I'm really going to focus on instructional delivery today. So they focus on that instructional delivery piece. So that for us hopefully feels a little less evaluative.

Jeff (22:28.358)
and that feels maybe a little bit more coaching as far as, know, this is what I saw, this is I didn't see. Here's kind of the opportunities I think was missed maybe, as a, as a, as a administrator's lens, and then versus the evaluation process, when I'm actually going in, I'm actually observing because the state requires me to come in and write to as a teacher. so hopefully kind of, again, divorcing those two as much as you possibly can. but we really want to be a more of a coaching culture in Greenville than we do want to be an evaluative culture.

Let's start to look down to wrapping this episode up. This has great. What a great success story. Is there anything that you really wanted to talk about today that we didn't get to? I'll give you an opportunity to go ahead and, hey, we want to talk about this. If not, then maybe there's some things that you guys can say from a wrap-up perspective and kind of bring this all together.

I think the, you know, just emphasizing that part too about this also being a teaching tool for our administrators. I think that's been the most benefit that we saw from this. You don't always have sometimes assistant principals that come to you as strong instructional leaders. Teachers know that. Teachers know when someone's walking and observing their classrooms, that's not a strong leader based on their observation that they're giving that feedback. So that's kind of our attempt is to, you know, those

assistant principles struggle a little bit with on the instructional leadership size actually propping them up and saying, let's sit down look at the observational feedback you were going to do. We'll take assistant principles with us in the classrooms and say, let's both observe in this classroom. Let's step back out in the hall and let's talk about what we saw. So in that process, we're kind of doing a coaching cycle to say, well, did you notice this or do you see this? So we're kind of teaching them like how to be stronger instructional leaders, the assistant principles in the classroom. So in order to do that, though, you have to have

kind of a tool that's transparent enough to allow you to be able to look at those observations over time and look at those improvements over time and what kind of feedback is being given. So I think from that standpoint, it's not, a lot of times people look at observation tools as an operational thing. It's like, this is the platform we use to record our observations, and it is. But for us, it's also an instructional tool. It's actually a coaching tool that we use to actually coach our administrators to become better instructional leaders.

Ben (24:41.102)
And I've got to say that that's something that we really admire about the culture in Greenville is just how they use the platform, right, to not only support teachers, but also support instructional leaders. And there's so many different things that we've learned for them about how to support their new administrators or their new coaches and how to take the feedback that they've seen, right, and then

continue to coach with that. one of the, we're in kind of that same vein, right? We're trying to use AI in order to be able to be in the classroom on every single observation. Just like Jeff mentioned, we're trying to provide a thought partner or a coach for them to be able to ask ideas or ask for clarifying.

are clarifying statements or to interact with that coach in the classroom as it as it knows about the like the instructional protocol that Greenville has created or the content of the form, the observation form that they're completing. And we're super excited about the potential of stacking another layer of value, I'll say, of the time spent in classrooms, right? There's obviously one that is the coaching that happens with teachers.

There's another with our platform that you get from a system standpoint where you get some, lot of data that you can go through and make some data-driven decisions on a weekly basis, a monthly basis, or to use that to create targeted professional development. But we're also now adding this piece to where every observation is this opportunity to build instructional leadership capacity.

in a very real time job embedded personalized way that you couldn't do before. And so we're very excited to see kind of where that goes and start to layer things like the standards and the curriculum maps and like all these other things that are internal and a great instructional leader will pull those things up during the observation to use. We're working with a number of districts to make, to surface that right in the observation automatically for the leaders.

Scott (27:05.89)
Well, Jeff, thank you so much for being on the show today, but I really want to personally thank you for spearheading a decision to make some real positive change in your district to make positive change, not just for your students, but for those people who steward them, right? Teach them. I think that that's really great. And Ben, again, thanks so much for joining us and being a leader in the change and providing.

resources and data and really great tools to help people like Jeff achieve greatness and do the things that they're looking to do. We really, really appreciate your stories and really appreciate your time today.

Scott (27:49.144)
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